Interview: Miljenko Vahtarić
Mine Action Expert with the OSCE in Ukraine
Hello Miljenko! It is no secret that you have been a great supporter of EOKHUB Magazine from day one and that your advice has immeasurably helped our development. From the very beginning, we debated how to introduce you to our readers; in the mine action (MA) sector, your name is synonymous with expertise, but given that EOKHUB has the privilege of attracting an audience outside of the strict industry, let's start from the very foundation and your professional roots.
Miljenko Vahtarić – today a Mine Action Expert with the OSCE in Ukraine, born and raised in Zagreb, entered mine action as part of the pioneer team that laid the foundations of the Croatian system.
I. Roots, Croatian Experience, and Regional Cooperation
Pioneer Days (1998): When you look back at the establishment of CROMAC and your beginnings in the sector, how do you view that time today? What was it like building a system from scratch in a country burdened by massive contamination?
Evolution of Challenges: What were the biggest operational and institutional challenges in those pioneering years, and what were the key lessons that marked your career?
Victory Over Mines: This year, Croatia was officially declared a mine-free country. It is no exaggeration to say that you left a deep personal and professional mark on that historic success. In your opinion, how did Croatia manage to fulfill its strategic objectives and reach the finish line, while numerous other affected countries have been spinning their wheels for decades?
The Power of Knowledge Sharing: You are a strong advocate of regional and global cooperation in the MA sector. What does this cooperation fundamentally bring to national centers, and where do you see the biggest missed opportunities in transferring experiences?
Exporting Expertise: Croatia now possesses unique experience and technological-operational know-how. How do you view the role of Croatian experts and institutions in helping the global community, considering that financial donations are never enough without operational knowledge?
These were really interesting times. I came to CROMAC from the Ministry of Interior eight months after it was established. We all came from different ministries, state institutions, UN and state demining company MUNGOS. We were enthusiastic to help as best as we can to make Croatia free of mines and UXOs but at the same time, the size of contamination was huge and, honestly, I was very skeptical that we will be able to do it in the near future, definitely not within the deadlines set by the Ottawa convention. The most important thing at the beginning was to analyze all information that we got from UN, Croatian Army, police and local communities to define what is the more realistic size of the problem. The first estimations in 1996 were 13.000 km2, almost one quarter of all territory of the Republic of Croatia. At that time, we had support from advisors from UN, WEUDAM (Western European Union Demining Assistance Mission), CIDA (Canadian International Development Agency), and some international NGOs like NPA (Norwegian Peoples Aid) etc., but they were also learning from our experts that were already doing demining during the war and in the period before CROMAC was established. Just to remind readers that at that time there were a few machines available on the market and they were too expensive for our budgets. Some of the first machines that operated in Croatia were RHINO, Hydrema and Italian adaptation of T-55 tank. DOK-ING started experimenting with the first concepts that were struggling to cut the vegetation. Later they will learn from their mistakes and experience and will become the biggest producers of demining machines in the World. So demining was done manually, with some donated old metal detectors. The main tools to help deminers were chainsaws and trimers to cut dense vegetation to be able to use metal detectors or simply check the land inch by inch with probes. Our survey teams had a full trunk of the maps and records when they were going in the field. There were no computer programs, applications or equipment like today. Everything was starting from scratch.
The biggest challenge was to establish well-functioning mine action system that will try to solve mine problem in Croatia, reduce number of new mine victims and prevent new causalities and enable sustainable return of people to their homes. The challenge was how to create good relationship with mine affected counties to satisfy all their priorities and, at the same time, to address all state priorities like reconstruction of communications, utilities and some big infrastructural projects like the highway Zagreb-Split, reconstruction of the railways and reconstruction of the irrigation system in the Eastern Slavonia. Many of these projects were funded by foreign sources of funding. Our management processes (procurement, finances, quality management etc.) had to be developed in a way that will ensure confidence in CROMAC and transparently of our activities. In my communication with the international community and donors I was always trying to speak openly and realistically, not making things better than they are and not exaggerate things in order to gain some short-term benefits. That was not only my position but the whole CROMAC management and as the one responsible to international cooperation and communication with donors I always adhered to that. The results were long term cooperation with many donors and international partners.
The Government set demining as one of the top priorities and supported demining activities with significant financial amount annually. The Government support was from 10.0 mil. EUR at the beginning up to 25.0 mil. EUR in later years. The biggest change in my opinion was when in 2003 EU decided to allocate projects and funds to CROMAC directly. That was a sign to other donors that the system is in place. In all communications that we had with the donors we were transparent and presented that the money they donated to us was spent exactly to the activities we agreed. Donors and investors were invited to participate in the whole process from procurement to the final hand-over of cleared land to the owner. As a result of that, in the last years of CROMAC, EU funds were one of the largest sources of funding together with the state budget. Without the support from EU and other donors, Croatia would not meet the Ottawa treaty obligations. Besides the financial support, CROMAC always tried to find methods how to speed up the demining process, how to in optimal way by good planning use its own capacities and capacities of private companies. We developed procedures and standards that were completely new in mine action. We were pioneers in extensive usage of machines and arial airborne reconnaissance. We were using sensors of a different spectrum and high-resolution cameras mounted on helicopters to survey large territories. At that time, it was state of the art technology. Today you can have such equipment of the shelf. The important moment was development of Mine Information System Portal (MIS portal). With the support of the Kingdom of Norway, CROMAC developed the portal that made information on the mine situation in Croatia public. This portal enabled faster communication with the local authorities, ministries and public companies. Everyone who had access to internet could see where the mine problem is, how the suspected territory is marked and was able to give us feedback, new information that we couldn’t collect during the non-technical survey. MIS portal was used by public companies, local authorities and donors for planning. Many embassies had link to MIS portal on their web pages to inform their citizens who planned to visit Croatia where they can safely enjoy their vacation. That was unique at that time in mine action world.
Advanced technology & AI
International cooperation
Stronger national systems
Increased funding
The regional and global cooperation is crucial for sharing knowledge, discoveries and developments. We all had the same goal, to clear the land from mines as soon as possible. If something is developed and tested in one country, there is no need to “reinvent the wheel” and spend more time and scares funds to came to the same conclusion. In our region we tried to do this through South East European Mine Action Coordination Council (SEEMACC) and bilateral agreements. SEEMACC was a platform for the exchange of information and knowledge and for planning of joined activities. The knowledge and experience developed in one country were used in other members of SEEMACC, of course with the adaptation to national legislation. For example, Croatia was leader in testing and development of procedures in mechanical demining, Bosnia and Herzegovina in mine detection dogs, Serbia in removal of UXO and Montenegro in underwater demining. SEEMACC meetings were also used to discuss and propose joint projects to the donors, not only in demining but in the research and development.
The other benefit of regional cooperation is easier access to donor’s funds. The good example is cross-border cooperation between Serbia and Croatia where the donors funded the most of the demining projects on the both sides of the border. Another good example of the regional cooperation was in 2014, when the big floods and landslides struck Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Serbia. The first institutions that met to coordinate their activities were mine action centres of these countries. One more example of good cooperation was during the migrant crisis in 2015, when Serbian and Croatian mine action centres daily coordinated activities in additional marking of the suspected territories on the border between two countries and developing and distributing EORE materials to migrants in Serbia by SMAC with the information on suspected territories, marking and official border crossing between two countries to prevent mine incidents on the border. Not a single mine incident was recorded thanks to that cooperation.
Here I have to be a little critical to my country. During the process of reorganization of state administration in 2018, it is decided that CROMAC will no longer be the government agency but it will be a part of the Directorate for Civil Protection under the Ministry of Interior. This was a logical decision but, in my opinion, it was a little bit too early. With that reorganization CROMAC lost the big part of its identity and reputation that it had before. The emphasis was given to finalize the demining in accordance with the Ottawa treaty by 2026 what is commendable. But the international cooperation lost the importance. It was limited only to some projects like cross-border cooperation with Hungary. There was no strategy or plans how to continue to present and offer our experience and technological-operational know-how to global mine action community. Many experts were retired or left CROMAC. The institutions that continued with those activities are in the first place Centre for Testing, Development and Training (CTRO) which is engaging Croatian experts for some specific activities like trainings, transfer of knowledge and scientific projects. CTRO is co-organizer of one of the oldest and recognizable events in mine action community – International Mine Action Symposium. The other organization is NGO “Croatia Helps” that is doing projects in cooperation with Ukrainian NGO “Ukrainian Deminers Association”. The rest are some individual attempts. In my opinion, Croatia could do much more in the support of mine action globally with its unique experience and knowledge in mine action and with the fact that from donor recipient country it become donor country. Croatia is donating machines and equipment to mine action institutions in Ukraine and to my knowledge there are plans to support other mine affected countries, primarily Bosnia and Herzegovina.
II. Ukrainian Challenges and the Geopolitics of the Terrain
Arrival in Ukraine (2017): You have been in Ukraine since 2017. When you compare the state of the local MA sector back then with what Croatia went through in the 1990s, how obvious were the parallels?
Metamorphosis of Conflict: How have the problems and priorities of mine action in Ukraine changed from the beginning of your engagement until today, especially considering the scale of the new destructions?
The Weight of the Terrain: Given the massive use of modern weaponry and unprecedented areas contaminated with explosive ordnance, what are the biggest and hardest challenges on the Ukrainian ground today?
The Trap of Numbers: Right now, everyone in the global public is bidding on estimates—how many exact decades will it take for Ukraine to become safe? Are these projections even relevant to operatives on the ground, or do they serve politics and the media more?
The Human Factor and Resilience: Ukrainian operators and deminers work in impossible conditions under constant security risks. As an expert, how do you assess their mental capacity, adaptation, and resilience in this permanent crisis environment?
There are similarities but also big differences. Ukraine has a long experience in dealing with mines and UXOs from the WWII and even WWI. Ukraine has excellent training facilities, institutions, teachers, trainers in these institutions and experts with huge field experience. There is competition among different institutions who will be in charge of mine action, as it was in Croatia between Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Interior. The difference is that Croatia started to develop its mine action system after the war, when the Law on Demining was adopted by Parliament and Croatian government established agency that will incorporate experts from all relevant government institutions. The first private demining companies were established even before the CROMAC was established. The same happened here. Croatia developed the market approach to the demining operations. Ukraine is starting with this approach and at the same time developing strong state operators capacities. Croatia developed the best process of quality assurance and quality control in mine action in which testing of machines and demining equipment is very important for the safety of deminers and also the users of the cleared land after official hand-over of territory. Ukraine I starting with development of such process. These are just a few of the parallels that are coming to my mind.
Ukraine is in war since 2014. It started with the occupation of Crimea and invasion and partial occupation of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts. There were two main state entities that were dealing with mines and UXOs and both had legal basis for their activities. The Law on Mine Action from 2018 and especially the amendments from 2020 recognized that fact and Verkhovna Rada (parliament) adopted compromised solution where the two mine action centres were established – one under MoD and one under SESU (MoI), with MoD having coordination role in time of war and ministry responsible for civil protection in the time of peace and when Ukraine returns control on the whole internationally recognized territory as it is stated in the Law. After Russian full-scale invasion on Ukraine the situation changed. The size of contamination and quantity of different explosive objects are on the scale that was not seen since the WWII. From 21,000 km2 of suspected territory before the full scale to current 135,000 km2. The variety of explosive objects and the origin of the production is unique in the whole world. New actors took the role in mine action like Ministry of Economy and Ministry of Interior. That created some confusion among the international community who were looking for the central focal point in mine action. The new situation has to be reflected in the legislation to clearly set duties and responsibilities of all mine action actors in Ukraine. The priorities didn’t change a lot but because of the size of problem, the emphasis today is put to clearance of agricultural land. Because of the war in Ukraine and large contamination of the agricultural land the prices of the agricultural products went up. This is the most felt in poor countries in Africa and Asia that depend on import of grain from Ukraine.
In my opinion, the biggest challenge in mine action in Ukraine is the security situation in which the mine action operators, domestic and international, are operating. We are witnessing regular attacks with ballistic missiles and drones on the demining teams of international and Ukrainian operators, SESU and STS units. Last year tragic attack on the DRC demining team in Chernihiv Oblast and in June this year another tragic attack on NPA team in Mykolaiv. It is getting more and more difficult to determine suspected territory due to the wide range of different UAVs that can carry mines and other explosive object deep into the territory of Ukraine. The affected area along the frontline expanded from 20 km to up to 50 km due to the extended reach of different UAVs. There is severe ecological problem that deminers will face in the future. Majority of destroyed houses in villages and towns in the conflict areas were covered with asbestos roofs. The intensive usage of the FPV drones guided with fiberoptic wires resulted with the enormous pollution. Some villages and fields look like someone dropped huge spider web on that area. Every single settlement in conflict zones is affected with mines and UXOs. The question is how deminers will operate in such complexed environment.
I don’t like to talk about estimates on how long the demining will last until Ukraine is safe from mines. First of all, the war must stop to be able to make more accurate estimation on the size of contamination. Second, we are not aware on how difficult will be demining, taking in consideration all aspects that I mentioned in the previous answer. Third, Ukraine is investing a lot in the research and development. Maybe there will be a breakthrough in the development of the technology that would speed up the demining operations. If Croatia had all these technologies that is now available to Ukraine, demining in Croatia would end at least ten years ago. But for sure it will be long and expensive process.
In my opinion the deminers in Ukraine are brave as much as defenders on the frontline. They are working in very difficult environment where you have to be constantly focused on the work while very often exposed to attacks from the enemy. This goes especially to the units doing operational demining close to the conflict areas. The two incidents that I mentioned previously shows that Russian side does not care if you are humanitarian worker, solder or civilian. Even when they are off duty on the well-deserved rest at home, they are exposed to risks due to the constant Russian attacks on the Ukrainian cities with ballistic rockets, drones and cruise missile. There were also deliberate attacks on the equipment and warehouses of demining operators. One example was attack with Lancet drone on SESU’s MV-10 demining machine. Russian side recoded attack claiming they destroyed Leopard tank. The machine was repaired and in two weeks returned to operations. From the security point of view, Ukraine is the most difficult demining program in the world in my opinion.
III. Technology, Future, and Personal Perspective
Technological Revolution: How much have drones, AI, remote sensing, and advanced magnetometers (such as the systems you closely work with) changed the rules of the game, and can technology truly replace the human touch in detection?
Utopia vs. Reality: When you look at the global picture—conflicts that show no signs of stopping and new contaminations—is a mine-free world a realistic vision of the future or does it remain a beautiful utopia?
Personal Cost and Focus: Since the escalation of the war in Ukraine, you have spent most of your time right there in the crisis hotspot. How does one get used to risk, where do you find inner peace, and what keeps you focused when things get intense?
A Break from the Mine Action World: We know your schedule leaves minimal room for privacy, but when batteries simply must be recharged—how does Miljenko Vahtarić spend his time when he is far away from the field, plans, and explosive ordnance?
The new technology is making big difference. It increases speed of detection while giving precise location of the detected items. It gives high quality photos and videos of the scanned territories that can be used for mapping of suspected areas. The new technologies increase safety of the operators. Information collected with all these systems are very useful in the decision-making process. The possibilities of usage of AI in identifying explosive objects, defining mine suspected or confirmed territories, priority setting and planning humanitarian demining activities are enormous. But even in the situation when we have available all these instruments, the control of the process and final decision has to be human. Unfortunately, there is still no “silver bullet” that will solve problems in humanitarian demining. On the other side while we are in search of “silver bullet” we are losing opportunities to incorporate some of newly developed and tested technology into daily operations. Combination of some of these technologies and creation of procedures and SOPs on how they should be used could help. The old Italian saying “perfect is the biggest enemy of good enough” sometimes reflects very accurately the development of new technologies in the mine action. Let me remind that the demining equipment and machines that are currently in use, was once in the past new and experimental with no 100% reliability even today. The same goes with the mine detection dogs. That is why the standards were developed to describe how and when such technologies and methodologies can apply. It is on the national authorities to decide the level of the acceptable risks connected to the incorporation of the new technologies into the mainstream humanitarian demining methodologies.
It was always a beautiful utopia. As long as you have countries that produces mines and doesn’t want to sign and ratify Ottawa convention it will stay utopia. Unfortunately, we are living in times of new imperialism, with countries that are attacking other, militarily and sometimes economically weaker countries to achieve their imperial ambitions, in pursuit of their natural wealth or because of the religious reasons. Mines are the cheapest means of defense and as long as there will be wars, there will be mines. But do we have to stop advocating the ban of production, usage and storage of mines, the answer is categorically NO. We should all put more efforts to convince countries to return to the framework of the Convention and to advocate for more countries to join the Convention, especially the biggest producers of mines and other explosive devices that hurt civilian population. For that we must have peace.
I came to Ukraine because of the economic reasons. I was 47 years old when I applied to the position of the OSCE technical adviser on mine action. It was the opportunity to “cash” my knowledge. Arriving to Ukraine I met so many wonderful people in the OSCE mission in Kyiv and institutions that we were supporting and cooperating with. I simply fell in love with the country and people that accepted me from the beginning as I’m one of them. When I had surgery, one month after arrival to Ukraine, they were there to take care of me and support me. We went together through a difficult time of COVID and Russian invasion. Coming to Ukraine is like coming to my other home. I’m more stressed and worried when I’m home watching the news about attacks on the Ukrainian cities then when I’m here under the constant air alerts (there is large combined ballistic, drones and missiles attack while I’m writing this). But after attacks life goes on. Meeting friends in the office, going to lunch with them or to drink after work is priceless. I have great project team and all these problems are easy to resolve when you are surrounded with such people. I would also like to thank to my friends from GICHD with whom I closely worked on the project. The special thanks to Croatian Ambassador in Ukraine, H.E. Anica Djamić for all the help and support she gave me since she arrived to Ukraine. She was always there to help in my difficult times, especially her engagement during my COVID days in the hospital.
My wife is my biggest support and one who makes the biggest sacrifice because of my engagement in Ukraine. It is always easier for one who leaves than the one who stays, and this separation becomes more and more hard and difficult every time I leave home.
Kyiv is a beautiful city that gives so much opportunity for relaxation. Beautifull paths along the river, parks, river islands, allows a long walks that I take every time I have chance, after work or during weekends. Sometimes I forget that I’m in the middle of the big metropolis. I love Ukrainian cuisine, especially borsch and synyky, a traditional Ukrainian cheesecake. I made borsch twice and both were delicious. Unfortunately, no one was there to try it and give me a real rating))). When I’m my hotel room I like to watch history documentaries. I’m a big fan of the NFL and can’t wait for the new season and games to start.
The possibilities of usage of AI in identifying explosive objects, defining mine suspected or confirmed territories, priority setting and planning humanitarian demining activities are enormous. But even in the situation when we have available all these instruments, the control of the process and final decision has to be human.
